The recent suicide of Tyler Clementi and the media’s response to it cries for a Christian examination.
The media is decrying the “outing” of Tyler by his roommate as the sole cause for his decision to take his life but there’s more to it - something deeper and more fundamental.
“They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, … Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. … the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” Rom 1: 25-27
The homosexual lifestyle creates a deep-seated shame within their psyche and often it’s life-crushing. Sin separates us from God. It dehumanizes; it destroys and nothing exemplifies this more than homosexuality.
A quick examination of the studies of suicide by homosexual youth reveals they’re more than three times likely to take their lives than straights. Here’s just one study: http://www.soulforce.org/article/653.
It’s logical for the media to point to the outing as the cause of Tyler’s decision to commit suicide and I have no doubt it contributed but ultimately the root cause was simply shame.
What of the “outing”? That too was a shameful act but let’s be realistic, our culture is almost completely secular. A secular culture is brutal and mean spirited. Can we expect otherwise?
During a recently high-school reunion I stood accused of calling a classmate "fat" 30-years ago. Though I didn’t remember this vile act I’m certain I’m guilty. People are cruel and hurtful in the absence of the Holy Spirit’s influence in their lives and 30-years ago I was no exception. Even worse are those who proclaim Christ’s Name yet act no different but that takes me off-topic.
I’ve spoken to several Christians who’ve embraced Katie Couric’s conclusions on the matter. They either wholly reject the idea that homosexuality is sin or in the very least embrace the idea that we need more civil government to fix the problem. More State-worship and faith in their ability to fix every problem however isn’t the proper Biblical response.
I’m not excusing Tyler’s roommate and haven’t taken the time to consider whether a civil response to his actions is called for, but I do know the Christian mindset is that creation groans for the return of Christ (Rom 8). My reformed leanings tell me that as we perfect and complete His Kingdom by conforming ourselves to His image, ultimately His beauty and majesty will prevail and dominate society. Such things as the unfortunate events at Rutgers University will be an aberration and the Glory of Christ will prevail until His eventual return.
Isn't it possible, however, that the reason a gay person feels shame isn't just because it's written in the Bible, but rather because blog posts and attitudes like what I'm hearing here put that shame on them? It's confusing enough to be gay at all--to be different from so many people.
ReplyDeleteI get the implication from what you wrote that you believe it's a choice for gay people to be gay, that they choose to be "shameful." What about, however, those who are gay simply because they are and can do nothing to change it? What is letting them know that they should feel shame doing for them?
David, the facts argue against being born homosexual. It clearly is a choice, otherwise how could God condemn it. Also there are studies that support my supposition be even if they didn't God's word does. I kindly suggest you inform your opinion with Scripture.
ReplyDeleteAlso it's not that I'm telling them it's shameful. It's inheritently known to them. They are ashamed.
Well, I don't want to get in a debate over scripture because, really, I don't find them interesting anymore.
ReplyDeleteI would simply like to state that you work a lot of assumptions about homosexual people here that seem largely informed simply by your own experiences, and the worldview that's been shaped from them. I suggest that there are many men and women who are attracted to the same sex and can do nothing about it. For many, the choice is not whether or not to be gay, it's whether or not they choose to act on their feelings (in the same way a heterosexual person decides whether or not they will become sexually active). If that is the case, how is continuing the idea that they should be shameful about the way they feel naturally wired helpful to them?
Perhaps it disturbs me that I can read this post as quite hopeless for a homosexual. Your answer seems to be that a homosexual should feel shame, and if the amount of shame they feel leads them to suicide, it's just a logical conclusion. But does it make sense that Tyler would take his own life simply because he was so grieved by his own actions? Or does it make more sense that Tyler felt so strongly that he should be something different, but couldn't, that he saw no way out? For people with this kind of inner turmoil, I hope we can have compassion and love them for who they are, not see their overwhelming pain as simply the product of their choices.
David,
ReplyDeleteIf you don't find Scripture interesting any more would you say that you've rejected your faith? I try specifically to inform my opinion only with God's word. I mean really, didn't I support my points with Scripture? I think it's fine to use studies as backup but God's word is sovereign. Any argument outside of God's word is meaningless.
If you carefully read Romans 1 you see that God gives people over to their base desires because that's what they want. Ya I want to sin on a regular basis and I'm not saying I don't blow it often - even on purpose sometimes but when one is in direct opposition to God and flaunting it He will not be mocked. If you haven't studied the death-style of homosexuals you out to take a look. It's devastating and sad and God holds them accountable.
I support you David 100%!!! Don't ever stop standing up for us. One day soon I hope to see the world united in that ALL are created equal and loved by their Creator for who they are!
ReplyDeleteKelly, speaking as a gay man, i can tell you with absolute certainty that people are born gay, straight, bi, trans-gender, etc. the fact that you make all your assumptions based on your life choices and the accuracy of one book composed entirely by men who hold to a similar bis view point, and therefore claim it as gospel truth, and the all inspired word of God, is appalling. This is no different than any other religion! Until you have walked in my shoes and experienced my life, don't even try to say that "studies say that its a choice." Would I, or anyone consciously choose to be persecuted, ridiculed, and told that I am an abomination because I don't fit the normal mold that you, and the other bis people have set up, that everybody must fit into, would I choose that? even that most primitive animal would flee from your bigotry.
James,
ReplyDeleteI perceive that you are in fact not a believer. Please tell me that is so. In which case I fully understand your point of view. I disagree but understand. What I don't comprehend is how believers hold to this perspective as many do. Homosexuality is a sin as I mentioned no worse than any other sin except for devastation it reaps upon it's adherents but just like I have the choice to, for instance, to not be a drunk, you have the choice not to be homosexual. I have no doubt that you're attracted to men. I have no quibble with that. What I have a problem with (for anyone calling themselve a Christian) is the idea it's OK. Your experience isn't authoritative but the Word of God is. Your conflict is with Him.
Oh you perceive this do you? Don't presume anything about me, you have no idea who I am. I was in fact at one point in my life a, as you call it, "a believer", but it was people like you that made me realize how destructive a lifestyle that was. So you apparently don't understand my point of view at all. The day I came out was the first time i started having a friendship with the all powerful, supreme, Creator of the universe! And I am proud to say that I am His/Her son. Of course the true Creator is so much bigger than what your bis Scriptures state, I wouldn't expect you to begin to comprehend who this being is. Every religion including yours, falls short of what truth really is, but of course you would disagree because your book tells you to, just as the Muslims book tells him to kill christians and infidels, there's no difference here. Just as a leopard cannot change its spots neither can a person change who he/she was created to be, in fact that would defeat the very purpose to which he/she is living. And saying that my experience isn't authoritative is the same as saying I'm wrong because I don't believe what you believe which in itself is flawed and very communist. every religious work clams to be the authority for its religion, just because some man writes a book and then says oh by the way this is God breathed, doesn't make it "God breathed". It just proves the naivety of the people who hold to it. You say my conflict is with him? Well i say bring it on! because the true Creator, the true "God" (Though She is so much more than that), created me and people like me for a specific purpose, and I am not only loved by Her, I am His son!
ReplyDeleteKelly,
ReplyDeleteThe scripture discussion rather unfortunately segues from the original idea I wanted to convey. I'm not sure if I did so very well, so I'm going to rethink how I put it. You and I might disagree on the importance of the Bible in our lives, and even it's authority, but... that's not my point.
My point is simply: Isn't your response a little dangerous? I mean, if we look at why a gay teen is, as you said, three times more likely to be suicidal than a straight one. I want simply to examine what the role of a discussion like this could have in that person's life.
For many people who have homosexual feelings (right, wrong or indifferent), they do not feel that they can change them. Many have tried their hardest to change these feelings within themselves, and find themselves powerless against them. Some live for years without acting on them--and yet the feelings persist.
So as the person continues trying to change the feelings to match what they believe to be "right" by society, and cannot, this naturally creates despair. This isn't a despair caused by anything they've done, simply by the feelings that they cannot control.
If you disagree on this last point, I'm not sure exactly what to say. I guess I hope you can just trust a homosexual when he says: this isn't something I asked for or wanted, it's simply what I got.
So what's the answer? I'm not sure. I just hope it involves compassion. I think it's fine if a Christian says, "I don't understand why you have these feelings." I think that's fair, and true. Neither does a homosexual know where the feelings come from. If, on the other hand, a Christian looks only at what the Bible says about it being wrong, and draws from that the conclusion that a homosexual chose to feel that way, it just implies that the Christian is not listening. I can agree that, based on scripture, God did not originally intend for a man to be with a man, but only with a woman. Does that mean, though, that in a fallen, broken world a man absolutely will not be attracted to a man, "naturally"? I can't see the jump there. I don't know what a biblical response is, but I don't think the heart of God for his people is for them to feel shamed simply by being, which for many homosexuals, is the only choice many Christians leave them.
I have to go move my car before I get a parking ticket. So I guess I'll leave it there.
Kelly said, "Your conflict is with God."
ReplyDeleteThis is very true.
Here is something for you. In days of old, men placed their organ of conviction in the truth, OUTSIDE THEMSELVES, and doubted themselves. Today men place their conviction in themselves, WITHIN, and doubt the truth.
When you derive your assertions based on your feelings and opinion, this is a dangerous thing to do. You see, we would never insult you by proclaming something is true based on our opinion. How arrogant. Instead, we draw from the infallible, innerant Word of God.
The Bible is living and active, piercing to the divsion of soul from spirit, bone from marrow.
If you say you were "once a believer" or you "no longer find scripture interesting", this merely points to the fact that you were never regenerate to begin with. You have never been, nor are currently believers. Both James and David have made statements that speak to their lostness. You two guys are clear examples of men made twice the sons of satan by false gospels being presented to you. It is sad, but David was given a watered down version of Christianity from the Vineyard and so he has embraced sin.
Now, I find it quite funny indeed that you both sit there and tell Kelly that he is bigoted and should not proclaim to know the truth, all the while proclaiming the truth of the matter yourselves AND expecting others to believe it! No matter how hard you try ,David, to sound humble about your wickedness, it is far more arrogant to say that no one can know the truth, and you know this! How do you know that?! Seriously? Do you really think you can thwart the Word of God? Why should anyone believe you over God?
The most lving thing anyone could ever do for you is give you the Truth. That Truth is we are all depraved. we are unable to please or even choose God until He changes our desires. Job 42:2 says that no one can thwart the will of God! He is sovereign over all things. All things come from Him. Evil is not a thing. It is an absence of or corruption of a thing; Much like a moth hole in a garment, rust on metal, or blindness in a man.....or in your case, sodomy. God made all things good. Evil is not a thing in itself.
Most have chosen to embrace their sin nature. Until God regenerates you, you will wallow in your sin.
It is a fact that homosexuals suffer greatly and this is due to their sin. In America the homosexual has more freedom than anywhere. They still suffer because they are guilty! Shame drives us to recognize our wickedness! Tyler chose to take his life because of it. Oh that many would fall at the foot of the cross where their is redemption!!! When Christians proclaim truth to them they screem hate crime. What a joke.
ReplyDeleteDavid, I will not comfort you or anyone else in their unbelief. You are living in sin. Your sin is wicked and against God. I love you and hope for your salvation, however you are hellbound today. Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the FATHER except through me." Does that make Him a bigot? Of course not. He proclaimed Truth.
Buddy, the mnost compassionate thing one could evr do for another is to tell them the Truth. If you are practicing homosexuality you are living in wicked sin. You are hellbound.
I know by now you are frustrated with my supposed bigotry and narrowmindedness. Is that really the case guys? I mean you continue to hammer on feelings and experience and emotion. C'mon, think. You are asking people to believe what you say yet deny truth!! Listen to me, there is such a thing as vertigo. This is something that happens to pilots, and it involves them becoming confused as to which way is up and which way is down. The "feeling" has been known to be so strong that the piolt even goes against CLEAR INSTRUMENTAL WARNING and flies the plane straight into the ground.
It goes like this, MIND then AFFECTION, then WILL. That is th eorder of operation which God created. Anything else is a beast.
Why not educate yourself?
Check out the world-renowned expert on homosexuality, Scott Lively. Any population has a certain percentage of people who have homosexual tendencies as children. It is the job of the parents to "straighten out the arrows in their quiver". Instead, we cultivate the behaviour and now we have a culture of effiminate men who are incapable of anything as a true man. Our gender roles are confused and few could ever articulate how a man and woman should behave. Also, homosexuals lean toward violence as evidenced by Nazi Germany. Read, "The Pink Swastika".
No, you are lost and refuse sound council. You cling to a man-centered worldview and hate God. Your unbelief confirms all this. Please turn from your wicked ways. Fall on your face and repent of your vile ways before a Holy God who will judge you and Ha sthe power to cast your sould into Hell.
If you guys are still practicing sodomy by the time that the debauchery of "pride" rolls around next year maybe I will see you out there. I and my brothers in Christ will be out there preaching and proclaiming the freedom of Christ Jesus and who knows....He just might decide to accept you.
I don't normally speak quite so forcefully but Dan you're 100% right on. I'd like to end it here however and move on with life. I had no idea that people who proclaim to be Christians could be so self deceived.
ReplyDeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteI understand that your convictions are powerful. That is abundantly clear.
I hesitate to enter into discussion with you, for this reason: I have intentionally avoided name-calling or accusations. I have expressed concern, but it has not been my intention to attack Kelly in any way (Kelly, if you read what I wrote as an attack, I sincerely apologize). Your comment, Dan, reads as an attack, however. It seems that you have taken my comments very personally, in exactly the way I hoped they wouldn't be received. If you felt like I did personally attack you, as well, I apologize for that as well.
That being said, I will address some of the things you have said. To get some small ones out of the way:
"In America the homosexual has more freedom than anywhere." To quote Kelly, I suggest you inform your opinion.
"No matter how hard you try ,David, to sound humble about your wickedness, it is far more arrogant to say that no one can know the truth...." This is not a claim that I have made.
"...you both sit there and tell Kelly that he is bigoted...." I don't recall claiming that Kelly was a bigot. Here or elsewhere.
"Christ Jesus...just might decide to accept you." If it is to be assumed that you back up all your statements with scripture, what is the biblical basis for a statement like this?
Beyond that: I do not believe that any of what I said contradicts scripture. I didn't say that you needed to change your beliefs in any way, neither did I claim to know the best answer for someone with your beliefs. I asked for a little compassion, and gave some of my reasons for doing so. I did not ask you to validate a homosexual's feelings, or even turn a blind eye. I just hope that my point that those who feel (non-Christians, Christians) attracted to the same sex and feel they can do nothing about it are offered no hope by being yelled at, put down and being presented with the truth as you see it.
Kelly,
ReplyDeleteI apologize, I didn't see that you'd tried to end the discussion. I did not receive a notification about that comment until after I had already posted.
David,
ReplyDeleteI didn't feel attacked. Hopefully this will end this thread however.
- I do believe that people have homosexual tendencies that they believe they can do nothing about. That doesn't excuse it. Sin destroys. God rescues those who call on His name. I might have a tendency to be a drunk and feel I can do nothing about it but still God holds me accountable and embracing alcoholism as if God could not be victorious over it sin, plain and simple. In other words, do I really know the Lord or not. A drunkards lifestyle would indicate not just like a homosexuals lifestyle would indicate not.
- Homosexuality is a sin like any other but it seems to be something that is off limits to discuss. I was particularly disturbed that people who say they are Christians support clearly anti-biblical stances. We seek refugees from the world, not proponents of it. If we're Christians we already have a Lord, a theology and we embrace His instruction. To not point out sin or excuse it in someone's life is akin however to being a lifeguard withholding the rescue ring to a drowning sinner. We cannot be selective about which part of scripture we adhere to. It's either all 100% correct and applicable to life or none of it is. This James Reihle guy is just flat out deluding himself. God's word is the standard. Not our feelings, observations or cultural norms. Sexuality and intimacy is at the very core of what humans are about and so naturally satan attacks here.
- I was concerned about your statement about not having much interest in the Word any longer. Christians love God's Word. It is life. It is food to our sole and the way God directs and leads us along with His indwelling Spirit. I would encourage you to fall back in love with His Word. Nothing else will do. I personally feel that if I don't ingest His Word on a particular day, God has a hard time blessing me that day and why would I want to step outside of the blessing of the God of the universe?
The point of my blog was rather basic.
- The death of Tyler Clementi probably had more to do with the shame of sin. You never know he may have just been ready to jump and being "outed" was just the last straw. A lifestyle where sin is embraced is walking death.
- The world is a brutal place outside of Christ. A brutal world will ridicule and prey upon people like Clementi. We should expect it.
Yes Christians should love and embrace refugees but as I mentioned, not proponents.
The biggest thing I learned from my blog is that many, many people who call themselves Christians are deluding themselves. This I was saddened and surprised about.
I noticed some incorrect spelling above that you'll have to overlook. I hate it when I do that.
ReplyDelete